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For many veterans, starting a conversation about the struggles they face is a difficult first step.

According to the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) released last year, as many as 22 veterans commit suicide every day in the United States. This is almost one death an hour.

The report is on data provided by 21 states, representing around 40% of the population, with only 77% of recorded suicides analyzed, meaning that the actual number may well be higher.

Currently, one in five suicides involves a veteran, even though they make up only 10% of the population, with death rates significantly higher for . The are telling: around 30 veteran suicides versus 14 among the general population per 100,000. Some of veterans have considered suicide, while 45% have said that they know an Iraq or Afghanistan veteran who has committed suicide. Given that, according to the Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America (), there are almost 3 million recent veterans in the US, with a further 8 million 鈥�,鈥� the numbers are a shocking statistic.

Compare this to America鈥檚 close ally in both wars 鈥� the United Kingdom 鈥� where, according to the Ministry of Defence data, 11,000 out of 177,000 serving personnel have been diagnosed with a mental disorder since 2007. Yet, only 123 have been officially confirmed since 2003. Even if this number is inaccurate, the gap between the two countries is incomparable.

What lies behind these numbers? First of all, it needs to be mentioned that not all of these deaths are a result of combat trauma; stresses at work and in personal life affect veterans as much as they do the general public, and often lead to tragic results. But the consequences of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) play a major role when talking about veteran suicide, with at least 20% of Afghanistan and Iraq veterans to suffer from either and/or depression. Of those, 50% did not seek treatment and, according to a 2008 by the RAND Corporation, of those who do, only about half receive 鈥渕inimally adequate鈥� treatment.

A recent groundbreaking documentary, , drew attention to another major factor in the equation: sexual assault in the military. According to the , 55% of women and 38% of men have experienced sexual harassment while on duty, and the Department of Defense that as many as 26,000 Service members have experienced unwanted sexual contact in 2012 alone.

It is easy to become overpowered by statistics and lose perspective on the people who suffer the many different consequences of war. This is why Tim Lawson, a US Marine Corps veteran, has created the 听project. He talks to veterans about their everyday struggles, from feeling isolated, unneeded, and misunderstood, to being unable to cope with the confounding comforts and endless choices of civilian life.

Anna Pivovarchuk talks to Tim Lawson about the most pressing issues veterans confide in him, and the ways to help them overcome these 鈥� at times seemingly impossible 鈥� problems.

Anna Pivovarchuk: So, how did 1,2, Many听begin? What was the inspiration behind the project?

Tim Lawson: I had just recently seen some articles on veteran suicide on CNN or the Washington Post, which really focused on the statistics and how horrible the numbers were, and I started to get upset with how we were dehumanize the whole thing by focusing on what accessible percentages and numbers may mean, and not necessarily talking about the people this is truly effecting.

A lot of people hear 鈥渧eteran suicide,鈥� and they make an assumption that that guy must have seen 鈥� he must have PTSD from his time in Afghanistan. That鈥檚 not always the case.

So I wanted to create something that provided an outlet for people to tell their own stories and change the conversation that we have about mental and emotional health and suicide, and what it means to go through all that. Since podcasting is my medium of choice, it was a natural direction to go with. I started reaching out to people, and I was really surprised with how many veterans and family members were willing to come forward and tell their story.

Pivovarchuk: You yourself are a veteran.

Lawson: Yes, I served in the US Marine Corps for five years.

Pivovarchuk:听So it must be easier for you to relate to these kinds of problems, to know firsthand what these people are struggling with, and what they鈥檙e going through.

Lawson: Absolutely. I definitely saw the hardship that comes with being in the military 鈥� you make a lot of sacrifices you make when you join. It鈥檚 not just about your time in Iraq or Afghanistan or on deployment, but it鈥檚 also not being able to be with family during the holidays. I saw a lot of guys that missed the birth of their child because they were on an听exercise. It鈥檚 tough, and a lot of people deal with it right there, but then down the line things pile on, and it becomes more difficult.

And transitioning out of the military is something that so many veterans struggle with. I struggled with it myself. That鈥檚 a part of this whole progress that I wanted to highlight as well. A lot of people hear 鈥渧eteran suicide,鈥� and they make an assumption about what听he must have seen, that he must have PTSD from his time in Afghanistan. That鈥檚 not always the case. Sometimes it鈥檚 relationship issues. Sometimes it鈥檚 sexual trauma. Or they get out of the military and they can鈥檛 find a job, they can鈥檛 put food on the table, so now there鈥檚 troubles at home and they resort to suicide as an escape from that. There鈥檚 a lot more difficulties, challenges and sacrifices that veterans go through outside of combat, and I wanted to be able to speak about that.

Pivovarchuk: You said you wanted to highlight personal struggles rather than the statistics. But the numbers are terrifying. The VA estimates about 22 suicides a day, which means that at least 80,000 veterans committed suicide since the start of the Iraq War. Has there been enough public pressure to address the scope of this problem?

Lawson: I think it鈥檚 beginning to build. I still need to read it, USA Today apparently did a cover on suicide in general across America, and how horrible it is for so many different demographics. The elderly are suffering from it a lot right now, veterans of course, teenage suicide is still of concern. When you look at the responses across the board, it鈥檚 how they address听it: It鈥檚 sort of like a simple shrug. It鈥檚 something that has so much stigma attached to it, and it鈥檚 so awkward, that I think it makes it very difficult for people to try to talk about it on their own account, or to approach someone who they think maybe also is suffering from suicidal behavior. I think there鈥檚 a lot of passive stress on the issue, people addressing mental health, but I don鈥檛 think there are many actionable items that we鈥檙e giving society to be able to truly intervene on suicidal behavior.

And I don鈥檛 think the stress is in the right place, that鈥檚 probably what the problem is: No one鈥檚 really coming up with little practical solutions. My biggest pet peeve is how suicide prevention occurs when you first see the warning signs. If you try to prevent anything else in your life, like heart disease, you eat right, you exercise, you do things before your doctor tells you you鈥檙e at risk. But for suicide prevention, we wait until someone shows signs of suicidal behavior, we don鈥檛 show people how to implement empathy and purpose in other people鈥檚 lives before they start walking into that dark space. I think the public stress is coming down on the awareness aspect and not necessarily a true resolution aspect.

Pivovarchuk: Given the recent VA scandal, and the fact that the Congress failed to pass the bill for veterans assistance, how effective is the support system for veterans?

Lawson: I think it鈥檚 difficult for me to speak on the VA for a couple of reasons. One, I don鈥檛 personally have to deal with the VA, so everything I hear is all secondhand accounts. I am fortunate enough that I don鈥檛 have any disability that I have to see the VA for and I鈥檝e been medically fit enough that I don鈥檛 have to go to a VA hospital. I actually have friends that use the VA on a regular basis, and while it is difficult in the same way that the DMV is difficult, they鈥檝e gotten everything they鈥檝e needed. I have friends who听are double amputees, and I have friends that are paraplegics, and they got what they needed from Veterans Affairs. I think the system is broken, in a sense that there is that backlog. And there are a lot of people who, when there鈥檚 a problem, want to highlight it and throw the VA under the bus 鈥� there鈥檚 too much stress on all the ways that the VA and that system is messing up.

One thing you hear from a lot of veterans is: 鈥淭hey don鈥檛 know what we鈥檝e been through, so there鈥檚 this mental isolation whether or not the public鈥檚 there.鈥�

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And I think a case to case basis is 鈥� like听 and some of the others 鈥� it鈥檚 difficult to say what their true problem was, because it鈥檚 difficult to really pinpoint people鈥檚 demons, but I think when it comes to mental health, this is a part the VA is really messing up on. If you鈥檙e sitting in the VA hospital waiting for your back problem to get dealt with, if you have to wait – you have to wait. But if you鈥檙e dealing with PTSD and other mental issues, time is against you and the fact that there is such an extreme backlog that some vets are waiting up to six months to get put into a room with a psychiatrist or a therapist that鈥檚 paid for by the VA, then that鈥檚 obviously where a huge part of the problem is.

Fortunately, there are many nonprofits that are starting to come up, and I think there needs to be a lot of stress on the VA to try outsource to these organizations. Places like and offer free therapy to veterans who reach out to them, and they get them in a room with someone within 72 hours. It鈥檚 of little to no cost to the veteran. I think organizations like that are very valuable, because it鈥檚 an alternative to the VA. But one thing that it isn鈥檛 is that it isn鈥檛 an official resource of the VA, so it doesn鈥檛 necessarily get put into their files and it鈥檚 not backed by their veterans鈥� benefits, so that鈥檚 where the disconnect is there.

Pivovarchuk: I think at the moment, there鈥檚 only something like 0.5% of active service personnel out of the general population, which is a huge drop from the Second World War or Vietnam. Also, the whole idea of the military being somewhat isolated from society, in the sense that most personnel live on the base, while technological advances have in many ways insulated the public from what war actually means. Do you think this divide between the public and the military compounds the problems that veterans face when they do come back from war?

Lawson: That鈥檚 a really great question. I hadn鈥檛 really thought about the separation 鈥� the veteran/civilian divide. There鈥檚 definitely a case of that, because for many veterans, when they get out of the military, not being around other veterans is a culture shock for them, because they鈥檙e so used to living on these bases, in these military towns. One thing you hear from a lot of veterans is: 鈥淭hey don鈥檛 know what we鈥檝e been through, so there鈥檚 this mental isolation whether or not the public鈥檚 there.鈥� It鈥檚 really hard for me to say, because I can make an argument for both sides on how there is too much isolation, but at the same time there鈥檚 still a lot of engagement. Many communities try to recognize veterans and military service members in their community. I don鈥檛 know how I would have answered this question five or ten years ago, but I think in the past couple of years we鈥檝e seen a real attempt to reach out to local veterans and families, to try to get them involved and bridge that divide.

Pivovarchuk: You do hear听a lot more about it now than you had previously. PTSD was only added to the medical books in the 1980s, but now there鈥檚 a lot more openness about the topic. Yet, compared to Britain, for example, where the official statistics are just over 120 veteran suicides since 2003, the problem in America seems disproportionate. Why is it so prevalent?

Lawson: When I do my live presentations, two things that I point out to my audience is one: a quote-unquote veteran suicide is reported as anyone who has committed suicide who also holds a DD214, which is the form they give you when you exit the military. So you can be out for 40 years and you could find your wife cheating on you and kill yourself and that鈥檚 still considered a veteran suicide. So that鈥檚 one way that the numbers may be skewed. As to whether it鈥檚 a military culture problem 鈥� so many people happen to have this DD214 that it creates these big numbers.

On the other side one thing that鈥檚 not being accounted for are the guys that are being overmedicated and dying in car accidents. Whereas it may not be a suicide, it probably stems from some part of their military experience. So those are the two factors that the numbers don鈥檛 represent, and misrepresent in some ways.

One thing that the military really fails on, at least in America, is that PTSD doesn鈥檛 wait until you get home to set in.

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Why I think it鈥檚 so bad in the military culture in America 鈥� That鈥檚 a great question. I don鈥檛 know what the stigma is in Britain, but we鈥檙e told that we鈥檙e ruthless, indestructible beings, 听that you鈥檙e not weak, you鈥檙e not soft, you don鈥檛 have problems, you fight through every bit of pain inside your body. But, you know, it鈥檚 not that easy. It鈥檚 not simple. A couple of the close-shave things you hear from service members is, 鈥淥h, I don鈥檛 need the help as badly as someone else does.鈥� And so they don鈥檛 seek help because their friend who probably had it worse isn鈥檛 seeking help. And then, I don鈥檛 want to lose my job 鈥� that鈥檚 a huge one. Service members can get separated from the military, they can get discharged if they鈥檙e diagnosed with any sort of mental health or emotional health issues, so a lot of guys don鈥檛 want to lose their jobs, they don鈥檛 speak up.

Then of course there鈥檚 the stigma of having something wrong with you, being told that you鈥檙e broken. All these sort of things 鈥� so it鈥檚 just pushed down inside of them. And then they go and they are ready to talk, or someone reaches out, there鈥檚 the idea that a person doesn鈥檛 know what I鈥檝e been through, so how could they possibly sympathize with me if they鈥檝e never served in the military, never been deployed. So there鈥檚 all these excuses that we make for ourselves that tell us that we shouldn鈥檛 get help, or we don鈥檛 need to get help, or that we shouldn鈥檛 reach out to people, that end up festering, and sooner or later you get PTSD, you become depressed, you start facing irrational thoughts and irrational behavior. And when you finally do start talking to people and they tell you how much they love you and how much you matter you鈥檙e already thinking so irrationally that you can鈥檛 really digest that information and it becomes lethal.

Pivovarchuk: So how do you break this cycle down? You need to be aware of your problems before you go and seek help, because you can鈥檛 be forced into medical treatment. How do you raise awareness of this, to preemptively act on more serious development in a situation of suicide and severe depression?

Lawson: From the moment I told the Marine Corps I wanted to be a Marine, all the way until I was officially on my first duty station, it was a good six months鈥� time. They invested a lot of time and money in me, to teach me how to be a Marine and how to be a killer, how to use all my weapons, how to save people鈥檚 lives, all that sort of stuff. And then when it came time for me to discharge, there was about two weeks鈥� preparation with a few classes I was required to go into, and none of those classes really provided any true value to prepare me properly for separating out of the military. The resources that are available to me that I鈥檓 unaware of because they weren鈥檛 represented well enough, all of the opportunities that I may have, things to do, to be aware of 鈥� that stuff just wasn鈥檛 touched on. So that鈥檚 one place where we really fail, especially in the military community, is convincing the military that they really need to invest in the personnel 鈥� not just those entering the military, but those leaving as well.

And then in the communities I talk about empathy, I talk about renewed purpose, I talk about mentorship 鈥� and this can apply to both veterans and to people in general. Providing someone with empathy is a great way of preventing suicide. Letting that person know that they matter is so powerful. It saved my life plenty of times. When I have become depressed, I am reminded that as horrible as this is, I matter to someone. It鈥檚 something that needs to happen long before someone goes into depression, because you go into that irrational state of mind, you can鈥檛 really process rational thoughts.

You know, what these people did was amazing. Think about what they did in the military. It鈥檚 truly remarkable that human beings can do such things and take such high responsibility and do it with such tact and professionalism, saving people鈥檚 lives with听complete disregard for听danger and risk to their听their lives. And then they come back听and become middle management at some shopping mall. They don鈥檛 have that same purpose anymore. It鈥檚 necessary for us to bring that service member back into society and provide him or her听with a real purpose. It doesn鈥檛 have to be some fantastic, amazing job, but making them the deacon of their local church, or having them join a motorcycle club and making them the treasurer, because they need to feel that other people rely on them 鈥� that鈥檚 such a strong feeling inside the military.

I personally don鈥檛 think there鈥檚 been any substantial changes made through political involvement. Clearly we don鈥檛 actually care about the effects of war, because we鈥檙e about to go right back into another one.

One thing that the military really fails on, at least in America, is that PTSD doesn鈥檛 wait until you get home to set in. If someone鈥檚 in combat, and they get put into a firefight, or they get hit with an improvised explosive device (IED), the next day they鈥檙e going to experience PTSD, even if it鈥檚 month one of their deployment. They go through the rest of their deployment 鈥� they鈥檙e carrying out missions, they鈥檙e accomplishing the task, and then they come back and they want to talk about it, and the military treats them as if they鈥檙e mission capable, even though they鈥檝e just spent all this time in combat. I think this is something that the military needs to realize: that having mental and emotional issues does not mean you鈥檙e mission incapable, it just means you have some things to work out before you get put in that scenario again. Because the military doesn鈥檛 respond that way to it yet, you see a lot of discharges. And now you have this place that so many people feel like they belong to, and so the military telling them 鈥渘ope, you don鈥檛 belong here anymore,鈥� it鈥檚 just like being kicked out of your family. There鈥檚 so much camaraderie in the military that when you鈥檙e forced to leave it can really do real damage.

Pivovarchuk: But how much political will is there to change things? Every politician will always pay lip service to the military, but I think at this point there鈥檚 something like 20% of Congress members have had active military experience. It was a much higher number back in the day, and this brings up back to the issue of a disconnect and perhaps a lack of understanding among the political class. Do you see any positive change? What needs to happen from the government side?

Lawson: I think that waiting for politics to make a strong movement on suicide is probably going to work against us. I think a lot of it is a minimum viable solution to make people feel like something鈥檚 happening. Because it鈥檚 not as simple as signing a bill making it easier for people to get help. I think it just removes one layer, one barrier. But it still requires removing stigma and changing the conversation. We have all this data, we have these numbers, politicians are talking about it, which is something. So we have this great signal, but now it鈥檚 all just starting to become noise. We鈥檙e talking about the same thing and we need to stop relying on the VA for everything that a veteran has to deal with. I personally don鈥檛 think there鈥檚 been any substantial changes made through political involvement. Clearly we don鈥檛 actually care about the effects of war, because we鈥檙e about to go right back into another one. So I don鈥檛 personally believe, especially with this new conflict with the Islamic State (IS) on the horizon, that anything鈥檚 really going to change. A lot of this really needs to be done at the community and local levels, because that鈥檚 the only group you can really rely on, and you can actually control what happens there versus waiting for the right bill to be passed.

Pivovarchuk: Is this really frustrating for you as a veteran? Obviously you鈥檝e sacrificed a lot for your country, and then you turn on the TV and the president and everybody else are saying how grateful they are for your service, yet nothing seems to change.

Lawson: It is frustrating. I was fortunate enough to never go to combat, so I spent most of my time as a marine security guard, guarding embassies. I was put in a different, serious role, but never saw imminent combat. But for example, when Fallujah got taken over again late last year, I heard it was horrible. A lot of my friends were like saying, 鈥淵eah, I lost a lot of friends taking over that city, I鈥檓 glad it was all done in vain.鈥� There鈥檚 this huge frustration that we鈥檙e just sacrificing American lives for nothing, and even the things that did get accomplished are no longer true.

But a lot of it gets excused by the fact that Americans were executed, so let鈥檚 go sacrifice a few thousand soldiers to teach them a lesson. I think that we haven鈥檛 solved the problems of the veterans that suffered the last war, that we haven鈥檛 solved anything on this side of the war. But we鈥檙e going into another one. And for some reason that鈥檚 OK. So that鈥檚 what has me furious, is all the implications that all of this conflict has on our society isn鈥檛 really being considered. But we鈥檙e still complaining about how bad PTSD and veteran suicide is.

Pivovarchuk: You鈥檝e obviously talked to many people, your podcast has almost 30 episodes. What are the main problems people talk about? What are the main issues that come up, the common theme?

Lawson: There鈥檚 a lot of root emotional problems: sexual trauma, PTSD, depression, people who can鈥檛 find a job, people who get separated from their family 鈥� the list goes on and on. But the common themes that I鈥檓 seeing from people is that they weren鈥檛 getting to help them resolve those issues, and number one was empathy. A lot of people admit that they didn鈥檛 know other people felt the way they did. It鈥檚 been really remarkable how many veterans message me saying: 鈥淚 started listening to your podcast, I had no idea other people felt this way.鈥�

Another thing is renewed purpose. That鈥檚 probably one of the most common themes. Guys that experience PTSD, dealing with their own demons, having a hard time overcoming that through getting the right job, finding the right role, finding the right purpose in life. Especially with their families, they鈥檝e been gone for so long on deployments, now they come home and the wives run the household, the kids have their own lives, stuff like that. They no longer serve the purpose in their own family that they were hoping to. Mentorship is something that I see a lot of success stories had access to. So whether it’s through empathy, whether it’s听through providing them with a purpose, through mentorship, whatever it may be, really communicating to someone and helping them understand that they matter before they start experiencing this behavior and going into this dark space.

Pivovarchuk: It seems that in your experience, a more open debate on the topic, more engagement with the veteran community could make a huge difference. From the local communities, and the general public as well, just to bring the issues to light and to make them feel like they鈥檙e not separated from society.

Lawson: Absolutely. Absolutely. Just 听the other day, one of my friends who is overseas was telling me that he started listening to my after he got put on suicide watch. He felt like he was feeling empathy towards what he was hearing. Just the past couple of days I was like 鈥淲ell, would you talk about your own experience,鈥� and now hopefully in the next week I鈥檒l get him on the show and he鈥檒l talk about his own experience, and hopefully what he talks about will resonate with someone else who鈥檚 listening. The more we have of this conversation the more we realize that it鈥檚 normal.

People want to listen. I think it鈥檚 easier for people to say that than for people to accept that, but there really is someone in your life who wants to talk to you. … It starts with making the decision to talk to someone.

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Imagine if you weren鈥檛 allowed to tell people that you were sad. That would be horrible, right? We had this suggestion of people asking people: 鈥淎re you thinking about harming yourself?鈥� That鈥檚 a really awkward question to ask. It sets such a weird dynamic between two people. But if you can just talk to people, it doesn鈥檛 have to start with 鈥淚鈥檓 really in a bad space right now.鈥� As much as we want to feel like all of our lives are unique, there鈥檚 a good chance that other people are experiencing the same thing, and those people probably aren鈥檛 too far from us. The more we have this conversation the more we realize we鈥檙e not alone in some of these issues, and we can build and learn from each other.

Pivovarchuk: There is one more element I really wanted to touch upon. When you think about veteran soldiers, you usually talk about men, but now there鈥檚 an increasing amount of women in the military, upwards of 200,000. I don鈥檛 know if you鈥檝e seen the film The Invisible War, which came out a few years ago, that听highlighted the problem of sexual violence in the military:听one in five women has been sexually assaulted. One in five out of 200,000 is a lot. The film shows how the sexual trauma compounds combat stress to an unprecedented degree. Have you come across this yourself? How do you begin this conversation?

Lawson: It鈥檚 probably one of the grossest things that I鈥檝e ever heard of. Because you would really think that a place of so much belonging and camaraderie would be able to take care of each other. And the fact that there have been so many men that have mistreated their fellow service members like that, it really disappoints me that I鈥檓 even associated with people who do that, and that we haven鈥檛 found the best way to rectify it. Fortunately or unfortunately, however you want to look at it, I am yet to have someone talk to me about sexual trauma in the military related to suicidal behavior. I have had a couple friends talk to me about a non-military related sexual trauma. But nothing that happened in their unit or with fellow service members.

Sexual trauma in the military was three or five years ago what today鈥檚 suicide is. Veteran homelessness I think is actually going to be put on the rise here, and pretty soon that will overshadow everything else. People care about buzzwords, people care about what the cause of the year is. I almost fear that once we start making headway on veteran suicide, that veteran homelessness is going to take over. I can already see it, I can see more organizations coming up talking about it, I can already see an effort towards it. While people still are concerned about sexual trauma in the military, it鈥檚 definitely taken a backseat to veteran suicide. But when I鈥檓 ready to take on something other than veteran suicide, sexual trauma may be the next thing that I touch on. I personally think that sexual assault in any case, military, college, wherever it may be, it鈥檚 going to be one of the biggest challenges for our society to overcome.

Pivovarchuk: I think you are doing an amazing job by opening up this conversation. Is there anything you want to stress for those reading this who might be experiencing any of the issues we discussed?

Lawson: Thank you. I think if there鈥檚 anything I want people to take away from it, it鈥檚 that there is no harm in talking about it. People want to listen. I think it鈥檚 easier for people to say that than for people to accept that, but there really is someone in your life who wants to talk to you. There鈥檚 really no problem you鈥檙e facing that someone else hadn鈥檛 at some point in their lives. Reaching out to someone, or at least searching for that sort of connection and empathy, is much more realistic than we think. It starts with making the decision to talk to someone.

The views expressed听in this article are the author鈥檚 own and do not necessarily reflect听51吃瓜鈥檚听editorial policy.

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